What's the stingray shuffle?

Welcome back to Aquarium of the Podcific! We are off to a ray-ly good start this season with Aquarist Sarah Nevarez. Sarah talks about her experience caring for the aquarium's rays, their behaviors, feeding, enrichment activities, and personalities. 

Episode Transcript

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:05

Hi, I'm Erin Lundy and I'm Madeline Walton, and this is Aquarium of the Pod Civic, a podcast brought to you by Aquarium of the Pacific, Southern California's largest aquarium.

SPEAKER_05 0:15

Join us as we learn alongside the experts in animal care, conservation, and more. Welcome back to Aquarium of the Pod Civic.

unknown 0:24

Woo!

SPEAKER_05 0:24

We made it to Susan 2. If you can't tell, that is a large crowd of people in the background. Live studio audience today. Yeah, totally live. Totally not just recording this in an empty studio with just us two. Speaking of, I'm Erin Lundy. I'm the conservation coordinator for Mammals and Birds.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

And I'm Madeline Walden, the aquarium's digital content and community manager.

SPEAKER_05 0:48

What have we been up to since season one launched? A lot. Our jobs. Yeah. There's been a lot going on at our jobs. Yeah, you've been up to a lot. A lot, a lot. We've had a lot of different conservation projects that we've been working on. We've had our mountain yellow-legged frogs continuing to grow and be awesome here, working on some new habitats and stuff for some of our animals. So we have a lot of exciting things happening this summer. But um for now, we just wanted to make sure season two gets brought to your ears. I know, it's been a minute. We can hear a little bit more about our animals, which I'm so excited about. I miss those stories. I know. It's so fun.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

So tricking our coworkers into talking about hey, whatever cool their jobs are.

SPEAKER_05 1:27

I think it works great. I think so too. It's really fun. Today we want to talk about one of the animals that is in actually quite a few exhibits at the aquarium. Um they are rays, and rays are pretty cool animals that are pretty closely related to sharks, which I don't think a lot of people know. They are a cartilaginous fish, which is how I am often described as well. I do see. I have heard that about it. I've heard that. It's been going around. Yeah. There's a rumor about it.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

Uh this is a really cool episode. I it's surprising and not surprising that rays get a ton of love on social media. We talk a little bit about it in the episode, but they're so cute there with the sea otters and the mammals um here at the aquarium and even over sharks sometimes.

SPEAKER_05 2:12

Yeah. Even though they're they're cousins. They're cousins. They're the popular cousin.

SPEAKER_03 2:16

They're the flat sharks.

SPEAKER_05 2:17

They're just flat sharks. So therefore sharks are still popular because they're just flat sharks. Exactly. Today we're going to be talking to Sarah Navarez, who is one of our aquarists who helps to take care of our rays, and she's going to tell us all about what it looks like to take care of the flattest sharks of all.

SPEAKER_03 2:32

She's so knowledgeable. I really love this episode. I know I learned a lot. And I know you are too.

SPEAKER_05 2:37

Yeah, I think it's a really great episode, and I'm excited for everyone here. And I'm excited to be back with you. I am excited to be back. It has been so long that this intro, we're like, are we good? Do we know how to do this? Do we remember this?

SPEAKER_03 2:50

Do we know how to talk? But then we put the headphones on and we're like, oh yeah, we're just trying to talk. We can really hear ourselves. Or big yappers. Very meta.

SPEAKER_05 2:57

This is meta yapping that's happening. But anyway, without further ado, um, let's get into our episode. So today on our podcast, we have Sarah Navarez who works with our Rays. Hi, Sarah, how are you? Hello, I'm great. What is your job title here at the aquarium?

SPEAKER_02 3:13

I am an Aquarist One here at the Aquarium, and I've been paid staff for about two years, but um I was a volunteer diver before that for four years.

SPEAKER_05 3:21

Ooh, I didn't think I knew that. Yeah. Very cool. So our dive program does have volunteers, which is awesome. And what level of dive certification do you need to be a dive volunteer here?

SPEAKER_02 3:31

You have to be at least rescue certified. So that's I think the third level of certification, and you have to have 50 logged ocean dives. Oh wow. Which is quite a quite a lot. Yeah, but we do do a lot here. We we're doing feedings, we're doing presentations, so you gotta be kind of moving the whole time and be a good experienced diver, but it's ultimately what got me my job here. So it's true.

SPEAKER_05 3:51

All I heard was Sarah's like an amazing diver.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

So basically I'm the best diver you've ever seen.

SPEAKER_05 3:56

Yeah. So did you start working with or around some of our rays when you were a volunteer diver?

SPEAKER_02 4:01

The only thing I can remember is sometimes the volunteer divers will go into the ray pool exhibit and clean. And so I remember this was probably back in 2017, getting in in a wetsuit and like doing the stingray shuffle as they call it, and just uh walking around and being careful and just scrubbing the walls and the rocks.

SPEAKER_05 4:18

So the stingray shuffle is not a term I had ever heard until I moved to California.

SPEAKER_02 4:23

Oh, right.

SPEAKER_05 4:23

Yeah, and people are now just like everyone knows the stingray shuffle. So for listeners who might not be familiar, what exactly is the shuffle?

SPEAKER_02 4:29

So it's not a cool dance that you do for no reason. Yeah. Um, so beaches in California here are super populated with little round rays, and it's can be dangerous. So you basically, instead of walking normally on the sand, you shuffle your feet so that whatever rays are in the sand will feel those vibrations and take off and be away from you, and you don't step on anybody.

SPEAKER_05 4:49

Oh, that would be so sad.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

I know everyone the human being stung and the ray.

SPEAKER_05 4:54

It's like, ouch. What has been your favorite part of your job so far?

SPEAKER_02 4:59

Um, so far, I recently got checked out to be a field diver. So, yes, um, I am part of the team that will go out and collect animals or go do surveys out um in the open ocean for our research projects, such as our abalone um project that we're doing um with a bunch of different partners. So that's been really fun to get out there and feel like a real scientist.

SPEAKER_05 5:20

So count abalone.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Um sometimes we do. We'll run what what's called transex, which looks like a big measuring tape underwater, and you run it a certain direction, certain location, and you're counting things on each side, or you're surveying or doing things like that. Yeah, on our last dive, we released a bunch of baby white abalone, which was so cool to see. It's exciting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:41

I think we're gonna talk about abalone in a future episode and what our participation looks like.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

So this is your preview.

SPEAKER_05 5:47

Oh, this is a little speaking. Just a teaser.

SPEAKER_03 5:50

Abalone's exist. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:52

Avalone teaser for everyone. Well, so it sounds like you did get your start sort of in our dive area, but how did you start working specifically with rays? Did you have any specific experience that led you to that?

SPEAKER_02 6:04

It's kind of funny. When I started, I remember my first day I was being shown around by my supervisor, and she was basically telling me what exhibits I was gonna have, because in my position, I'm in charge of four to five exhibits. And we walked up to the ray pool and she was like, This is yours. So I just took it over. I mean, I've been around, like I said before, I've been around the rays and stuff, and I know um about their anatomy. I have my degree in brain biology, so I have like very intro ray knowledge, but that's pretty much how I got the ray pool. It was just given to me and I've had it the whole time I've been here and I've I've loved it. It's it's super cool.

SPEAKER_03 6:36

There.

SPEAKER_05 6:36

Um, I think one of my favorite things about working in husbandry, and that sort of has been a universal experience for everyone, is you know, a lot of people come up to me and they're like, You must have loved frogs getting into this. And I'm just like, no, someone one day just was like, Hey, we need help. You seem like you like plants and probably animals. Like, do you want to help with this? And of course I did, you know, like I love learning new things, but there was no initial passion for amphibians, and now years later, it's like such an ingrained part of this my whole personality tattoo. How did this happen all of a sudden? And you know, like the mountain yellow-legged frog project is so much a part of what I do here. But if you had asked me five years ago, oh, how interested are you in frogs? I would have said not at all. They're fun, they're fun, they're cute, I like them, but I know nothing about them. And I think that's almost a misconception because, like, how can you possibly come into this field with the level of expertise that you need to learn, like to know about a ray? You know, it's not a pet animal, it's not an animal you could have kept. But you know, one day you were assigned ray pool, and all of these rays are your responsibility, and then the passion sort of follows, which I think is cool, but it must what's that learning curve like for you?

SPEAKER_02 7:43

It's very intimidating. Well, and a lot of things too, you can only learn about these animals when you're working with them. It's true. Yeah. So we just finished up welfare assessments for our rays. Every year we weigh all of them and we measure them and we do a visual inspection. Um, and so the first time we did that, we weighed all of them on a big scale. Without it, I think we use the otter scale for the first time. It's so weird. It's big and you don't realize how heavy they are until how heavy are they? Um I think our heaviest one is 27 kilograms. Oh wow. It's like a 60-pound ray set. I think that's stubby. Sorry. Yeah. Um but yeah, so I like I didn't know how much a weight a ray weighed. Oh, that's hard to say. I didn't know how much a ray weighed until you know I'm taking it out of the water. Yeah. Yeah, the longer I'm with the tank and with the animals, the more I learn about them. And yeah, that's just that's just how it is.

SPEAKER_05 8:37

So much of it is such like niche knowledge, too, of like, oh, for this ray, the best way to carry this animal is that and you're like, how would I have ever come in with that information? Yeah. But I think it's really cool, and I love that people sort of get assignments, and then part of the assignments essentially learn about the animals and do everything you can to provide the best possible care. And of course, we have guidance and we have like husbandry care manuals and things like that. But so much of it is like on-the-job learning. Yeah. And I think that's really cool. Yeah. But since you know so much about rays, we are gonna be asking lots of questions about the things. Sometimes the expert on rays. Yeah. Um, so who are our current rays? Like what species do you take care of of our stingrays?

SPEAKER_02 9:13

So in Ray Touchpool, we have the bat rays are the main attraction. Um, we have six of them. They all have names, but we'll get to that in a second. Um we have three little round rays, and so those are the ones that you're you might find on the beaches here in Southern California. They're so they're so that's yes, they're little round rays. They're um, I don't know, maybe four or five inches across, and they're the brown colors that you see. They're like brown, light brown, and they camouflage really well on the sand. Um and then we have a shovel-nosed guitar fish in Ray Pool as well. It's kind of the one that's like it doesn't look like a typical ray.

SPEAKER_03 9:48

It looks like a shovel-nosed guitar fish. Like if you would just draw that, if you had to admit, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

Draw what you think that is. And that's what's probably what you're so right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:57

Is it considered a ray?

SPEAKER_02 10:00

I think so. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:02

There's some confusing like rays and sharks and skates. The terminology.

SPEAKER_02 10:06

Yes, skate is a whole other thing. So stay tuned for the skate episode. Stay tuned for skate episode, another preview. Um then okay, shovel nose guitar fish, weirdo, and then two sturgeon, which are the big fish in there.

SPEAKER_05 10:20

We get asked a lot of questions about the sturgeon. Everyone loves the sturgeon. They are cool. They're very cool fish. How old are our sturgeons?

SPEAKER_02 10:28

Oof. Uh, the big boy or girl, I don't know, actually. The big old sturgeon. Sturgeon is maybe around 10 or 12. Oh wow. I think that goes off of when we got them and everything. Um, the smaller one, she's a little female, probably four or five. Okay. But again, that's a very very rough estimate.

unknown 10:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:47

They grow slow and and yeah. Um, but the bat rays in Raypool have names, and all the names are based off what their tail looks like because there's no other way to name them really. Yeah, how else would you tell them apart? How else would you tell them apart? Um, so we have S, who's tail shaped like an S. We have curl, who has a little curl at the end of her tail. Tiny is the smallest one. Um Clean is when we added as opposed to everyone else. To everyone else. Um, so unrapeful, they're kind of they're big animals, they can be a little rough with each other. Um so sometimes they'll have little scratches on them. Um I think when clean was added, she was like one of the newer ones with no scratches. So I think she was pristine and clean. Clear skin. Yeah. We have Stubby, which we mentioned before, and Stubby has the shortest tail, and then we have Kink, who has a little kink at the end of her tail.

SPEAKER_05 11:38

Okay. So you can't like if you looked at the majority of their body, it would be hard to tell them apart. Yes. But the tail is very distinctly.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

If there's no tail, then you need help because there's no way you're gonna tell their names.

SPEAKER_03 11:51

But that's fair. Yeah. Well, then it would be none. That would be their name. Yeah, none. None.

SPEAKER_05 11:56

None tail.

SPEAKER_03 11:57

None none tail poor none. Poor none. Well, we don't have a nun. We don't have a nun. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_05 12:02

Do the round rays have names? No.

SPEAKER_03 12:06

Because they all look the same.

SPEAKER_05 12:08

The little paws before. Uh no.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

They just don't. That's well. I was thinking of a way that I could maybe kind of tell them apart, but no. No. Because they're all similar size too.

SPEAKER_05 12:17

So and they're, I mean, they're like exactly sand colored. You're like, I could see how someone would step on that and go. That's why the stingray shuffle is very important. The bat rays, if you can't see that, you then you need help again because they're still like four feet across. Totally different color than the sand. Yeah. But I understand when I looked at the round rays why that's important. Um, speaking of their tails, are there stingers on their tail?

SPEAKER_02 12:43

So we've refer to it as a barb. Okay. Um I know it's called stingray. I know it's called stingray, but um, the barb is actually at the base of the tail. So they should be called barb rays. Barb rays. I'm changing their name to barb rays. Barb rays. But the barb is at the base of their tail. So if you look at the body and just where the tail starts to come off the body, you'll see a little barb. Um a lot of the rays in Raypool are pretty old. They're around 20, 20 years old. Oh wow. Yeah, some of them are charter animals. Um, they've been over the aquarium since we opened. Um, so over time, that barb we trim it so that it can't hurt people. So some of the rays in Raypool actually don't even have their barb anymore. Um sometimes if we trim it down, or sometimes it'll grow crooked, so we have to remove the barb so it doesn't hurt the animal anymore. So a good majority of them, I think four or five of them don't even have barbs. They're just like a smooth little part on their tail. But we always keep it a clip so that's barbed.

SPEAKER_03 13:38

Um described as kind of like a fingernail kind of back. So does it does it hurt the animal or does it cause any other issues? No in a you know, habitat where it doesn't have to defend itself, I'm assuming it's not necessary.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

Um it's kind of like a dog's nail, you know how you can't cut too far, otherwise you'll get the quick. Um so we cut just kind of at the end where it's pointy. Um it doesn't bleed or anything, it doesn't hurt the animal, and it you're just cutting off the sharp part of the nail or the sharp part of the barb. A manicure, exactly. Um and yeah, they if they don't have to use them in the ray in the ray pool, they're they're fine without it. Yeah, it's for safety. Does it feel like if you get stung? If oh um it depends on the species. Okay. Um so if we're thinking of more common ways to get stung out here with the little round rays, um, if you get barbed, I guess bar stung, quilled, I don't know. I've been barbed. If you get hurt by a ray, by a little round ray, um, I know if you pour hot water over it, it's just it's irritating and it hurts, but it's not like gonna die or anything.

SPEAKER_03 14:37

Yeah, not so much.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

Um I'm assuming a battery, because it is a bigger animal, will probably be more painful. Um and again, the treatment for that is probably hot water until you can go to the hospital if you need it. Do you know the hospital for it? I don't know. If the battery's worse. And they're huge. Bat rays in the wild can get up to 70, 80 pounds, I think. Oh wow. Ours are 50, 60, probably, but they can get big and they can get, I think, six feet in wingspan, which is my height. Oh, wow. I'm a very tall person.

SPEAKER_05 15:07

So everyone, Sarah is six feet tall. Yeah. And just imagine a ray. Oh, that's why you're in charge of them. You can relate to them, yeah. That's why they change. Your supervisor was like, you seem exactly like these batteries. Let's put you in charge of them. Yeah. So have you ever been stung by a ray in general? I have not. Ever in your life? In all 50 plus ocean dives you've done that.

SPEAKER_02 15:30

All my 5,000 million dives I've done? Never been stung. No. Um, yeah, bat rays are usually, they're not ones, or rays in general are not animals to go and attack you. It's pretty much only if, like we said, if you're stepped on or if you're kind of in their area, or you're reaching down and you accidentally are near them, then they will whip their tail around and get you with a barb. But they're not aggressive animals.

SPEAKER_05 15:51

They're so like they're such interesting animals because like to think that this thing is related to a shark, and like I hear people describe them as like a sea pancake, or you know, like they're so flat, they look so different than a shark. What are some of the similarities or characteristics that they have in common with uh other elasma branch? Like, what do you see across that family?

SPEAKER_02 16:11

So, yeah, they're related to sharks. Um, but they both sharks and rays have their skeleton is not made out of bone, it's actually made out of cartilage. So it makes them very smooth in the water, it makes them very flexible and easy to fit into maybe smaller spaces, but they're a lot more aerodynamic that way, or water dynamic. I'm gonna call everything water dynamic. Water dynamic. Um I love that. So that's one of the main things that sets that sharks and rays have in common. Scott has a question.

SPEAKER_05 16:39

Ready, welcome Scott, to the podcast. Yeah, yes, Scott. And a ray nerd, apparently. And a rock nerd, and a shark tooth nerd.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

Um sharks, I know if you turn them over, they go into the uh tonic immobility, but do rays do the same?

SPEAKER_02 16:52

I I believe some species do. I honestly have never flipped one of the batteries over because I would get slapped in the face.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Um by the ray or someone walked by.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

First by someone being like, what are you doing? And then by a ray.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Okay, double winged.

SPEAKER_02 17:09

Yeah, they're very strong. Uh like I mentioned when we do the assessments and we have to handle them and weigh them and all that. It's takes a couple people. So um, that's an excellent question. Um, but I believe some do, yes.

SPEAKER_05 17:22

It's funny because sometimes I'll walk over by the ray pool and they'll just like slap the water so hard that they cause like this tidal wave outside of the ray pool. So I can even imagine that like on your body.

SPEAKER_02 17:33

And it's like just act. Yeah, in the morning, their kind of routine is in the mornings they're very splashy. They will be up against the wall. We think it they've just always done that. It's usually in the morning when I feed them. So they're like, I want food. Um, and then in the afternoon they're worn out and they're sleeping and napping and exhausted. Um so yeah, sometimes in the morning it just sounds like someone is.

SPEAKER_03 17:54

Well, I have mistakenly sat there like waiting for to go into pinnipeds or something. Splash zone and just fully gotten splashed. I'm like, this is my fault. Thank you. Thank you for the good morning wake up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:03

It's uh it was just refreshing. Yeah, I think they're trying to help you out.

SPEAKER_03 18:06

Wet pants the rest of the day. Yeah. That's pretty common for you guys, I'm sure. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Wet pants down.

SPEAKER_05 18:12

That's just I'm pretty sure I've seen Sarah in fully inside of the Ray Pool more than anyone else I've ever seen. Because you have to like go with regular pants or just to like in a wetsuit typically, but I'm you've not in uniform. Have you ever fallen in uniform?

SPEAKER_02 18:27

No.

SPEAKER_03 18:28

Really?

SPEAKER_02 18:28

I haven't. And you won't. And I won't. And she won't. I'm just manifesting that fair. Well, okay. It doesn't count if okay, so it does. It counts. When I go in the exhibit, I'll be either in a wetsuit or in like fishing waders that come up to I don't know, my stomach. Um, and so I was doing something and I slipped. That counts, sorry. Okay, that counts. Um and some of the water got into the windows at the hours. It wasn't the whole thing. But so technically, yes. I have fallen while I was inside the rain pool.

SPEAKER_05 18:57

And you got water in your pants. I got water in my pants, and my pants are all wet. We have to get in the waiters to clean the pinniped windows, the seals and sea line window. And there was the one worst thing is I found out there was a hole in the butt of the waiters because Parker swam by in his body. And I just got so much water down the back of my pants. I was like, ah, horrible.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

I had that happen when um I was working on trap up in the exhibit because the audio box you actually have to go down those steps. And I leaned down too far to pick up something, and water just filled the waiters.

SPEAKER_04 19:28

Yeah, like well. I was like, oh no. I live in here now.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

Yeah, that was my day.

SPEAKER_04 19:31

All of your clothes are wet. It's not like a wet sock or anything. No, like your whole body. You're just full of water.

SPEAKER_05 19:37

You're basically in like a little I'm an exhibit. Yeah. I'm in the pool. Um, cool. Well, in turn, so you talked a little bit about how some of our bat rays are 25 plus years old, have been at the aquarium since we opened. How long do rays live? Are there very long-lived species? Is it species dependent?

SPEAKER_02 19:54

It's species dependent. Um, bigger, way bigger species like species of manta, I'm assuming, live way longer. But our bat ray lifespan is about twenty five years. Um in captivity, they probably live longer, which is why the ones that we've had for so long are still kicking and splashing everybody. Still splashing. Um but they are considered uh older animals that they have.

SPEAKER_05 20:16

Yeah. I know um one of the questions that one of our listeners had was what are the differences between stingrays and manta rays?

SPEAKER_02 20:23

So manta rays are those big, big pelagic, meaning midwater species that you see people diving with. Um they have the big oral lobes that they take in their food with, um, and they are they are they are giant. Um day I will one day I will snorkel with manta rays. One day.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

I haven't done it either, but I know I've seen some of our colleagues have gone and share the most like amazing pictures. It doesn't even look real. Like how it looks like just a sea monster. Yeah. But a cute monster. We used to have them painted on the front of the aquarium, but even though we didn't have manta rays here. It was misleading, but it was still very pretty. Like in the front entrance. So before PV, we had a muralist from I think it was from Portugal um It was part of like the Long Beach uh like walls project. It was pretty um it was really, really cool. I'll send you a picture. I don't remember that. Yeah, this was pre-PV created. Probably 2016. I think it was my first year that I went up. It was when I see that's when I started diving.

SPEAKER_02 21:19

Yeah, yeah. Manta rays, giant, no barb oral lobes, stingrays are usually smaller. They're more benthic, so they're more on the bottom, as opposed to manta rays and more pelagic in the water column. And stingrays have bars and barbers. And barb.

SPEAKER_05 21:35

So stingrays typically, like I know we we have species, pelagic rays.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Oh yes, yes, sorry, yes.

SPEAKER_05 21:42

Oh, I forgot about Sansa. We do have a pelagic rays, okay. Yes. So I know we have pelagic rays, which are a stingray that is pelagic, so they sort of deviate from the norm of what stingrays do. But do stingrays are they shaped like that and and their mouth is on the bottom? Like, is that a feeding thing for them or a defense thing? Like Why are they at the bottom?

SPEAKER_02 22:02

Well, yes. So first I forgot about Sansa, which is our pelagic ray. In Raypool, we do have one.

SPEAKER_03 22:08

And so she can go over one more time what pelagic means.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

Yes. Pelagic is describing the water column. So you're not at the very surface of the water, you're not in the sand in the benthic zone. You are in the pelagic zone. You're kind of in the big open blue water. The pelagic zone. Jellies are pelagic species. Dolphins are pelagic species. Most whales are pelagic species, yeah. Um so our pelagic ray is named Sansa. Um and she does have a barb and her mouth is on the bottom like traditional stingrays, but she lives in the pelagic zone. Um so for our bat rays and other benthic species, all of their food is usually going to be found in the sand. And so bat rays will use their little like kind of the tip of their nose, like a little shovel, and go through the sand and get different mussels, clams, things that live um in the sand, and that's how they eat. And I don't know about pelagic. Pelagic rays will eat things that are in their pelagic zone.

SPEAKER_03 23:06

Like mid-water column.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

Midwater column. Yeah, Sansa does eat off the bottom occasionally.

SPEAKER_03 23:10

Um I was gonna ask, do you see like kind of a difference in behavior in the way she eats compared to the other rays? It's cute. It's very cute.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

So Sansa's the light of my life. Um if you can tell. Uh so when so we got her when she was very little. Um she's about three or four years old right now. Um and so before she was as the size she is now, she would kind of we would target her and she would eat separate from all the rays so that we ensure that she actually got food. Um and she would come up to the surface with her little face, and then we would give her Witongs food, and then she kind of flips on her back and swims backwards, and she'll use her pectoral fins to kind of like bring food to her mouth. So if think of like a little taco being folded. She would yeah, she would do that. Um use her wings and kind of get food. And sometimes I would throw food onto her little mouth when she's on the surface, and then she'll kind of flip and come back and do the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 24:01

So we have sea pancakes, sea tacos. Sea taco. Um what else do we call them?

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Sea raviolis. Sea raviolis.

SPEAKER_03 24:08

That's a good one. Like little baby ones. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:11

It just reminds me of when you like throw a cheese ball in your friend's mouth. Yes, that's exactly what I would do with her.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 24:17

Throwing little pieces of clam in her mouth. Ah, yes.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

So backtracking to that's how pelagic rays eat. They use their wings. They use their wings to capture.

SPEAKER_03 24:27

We'll have to post it along with them when release this. It's real cute. Yeah, she's my favorite. Wow.

SPEAKER_05 24:33

Can you tell? Just right out there. We're gonna tell all the bat rays.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

They're fine.

SPEAKER_05 24:38

Do our rays ever breed here?

SPEAKER_02 24:41

So we have all female rays. Um, when female and male lasmer banks sharks and rays are together, the males are extremely aggressive. But if they're with the females, yes, rude. Because yes, very rude. Um, because they're trying to mate. Yeah. And so they'll grab their wings, they'll yeah, it's very, very intense.

SPEAKER_05 25:04

They need a sorority only. Yes. What if males are alone together?

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Um, so all of the round rays that we have are actually all male and they're fine. Yeah. They're fine. But it's when you have the same species of different sex that they get a little crazy.

SPEAKER_05 25:17

I remember one of the cownose rays was pregnant at some point. What does a pregnant ray look like? How can you tell? They're just chubby.

SPEAKER_03 25:26

They just have like a little chub chub, yeah. The cownose rays, they just you can see a little tummy on them.

SPEAKER_05 25:31

It's really sweet. Well, that's interesting. So we need to keep same sex of the same species together, yeah. Otherwise, just to prevent issues. Any injuries or issues. That's fair. Are they do you consider them to be like a pretty intelligent species?

SPEAKER_02 25:46

Do you do any training with them? Um, I do like we mentioned before, I we with Sansa, we would do the target training, so she would come up and eat. So they you can target train them, you can station train them. Um we had a couple of bat rays in Blue Cavern a couple maybe, I think last year, and they were able to come to their little target with and the diver was able to feed them. Um yeah, they they're intelligent to that point, but not I mean, not like a GPO or something. Yeah, they're smart for what they need. They're smart for what they need. They get around food, they splash around and they're fine.

unknown 26:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

What a life. What a life. I wish that was me.

SPEAKER_05 26:19

The last question I wanted to ask about sort of our rays in general. Do you find that they each individually have their own personality? And like what sort of enrichment do you provide to sort of keep them mentally stimulated?

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Um, so whenever I am in the exhibit, either with waiters that are not flooding or with a wetsuit that I'm not falling in, um, sometimes I'll put food on the bottom and then put kind of like a weighted net over. It looks like a big square net, and they'll kind of have to dig through and kind of it's it's whatever puzzle feeder. Yeah, it's exactly like a puzzle feeder, like a Kong ball. Um whatever you can do to stimulate their natural way of eating is a great type of enrichment. So they're using those little plate teeth and their shovel little noses to get the food out from under that net. Um, and they really like it. Uh, but in terms of personality, I sometimes relate their personality with their name or what their tail looks like. So um So Tiny just has a little bit, and she's yeah, she's not kind of one of the more, I don't know, uh not aggressive, because when when I feed them, they get very crazy. And they're not being mean or to each other or anything, but it's kind of excited. Yeah. And Tiny's kind of the one that will stay back a little. The biggest one is or stubby, yeah. The biggest one is stubby and she'll kind of be more excited. But other than that, they're kind of all the same.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

So I know those are all female, but what is the sexual dimorphism with rays?

SPEAKER_02 27:43

Um, so with rays, just like with sharks, the female's on her underside, she's just gonna have a vent, and then the male has two claspers.

SPEAKER_04 27:51

Oh, okay, yeah. Which look like yeah, kind of elongated fins. Yeah, exactly. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

Um and the small round rays, the males, you can see their claspers. Um even when they're right side up.

SPEAKER_05 28:01

Where is it relative to their barb their claspers?

SPEAKER_02 28:05

So it's basically the same location but on the underside, under underside of them. Okay. Yeah, kind of at the base of the tail-ish, but the claspers will come out towards their tail.

SPEAKER_03 28:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

And the vent is kind of right before their tail on their main body.

SPEAKER_03 28:19

So rays are really just kind of like a shark. Kind of pancaked. Yeah. Yeah. Squished it. All the like fins, they just like like it. Yeah, everything melts into one pancake.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Yeah, I can't remember if you already said this, but do they have teeth?

SPEAKER_02 28:33

Yeah, so they have yeah, since they're um eating hard-shelled items mostly that are in the sand, they have kind of their teeth are flat, kind of like two plates, like two blind uh grinding plates that are against each other, and they'll kind of grind them together and to crush up the shells, and then they'll eat the meat and spit out the shells. Yeah, so it's not like traditional shark teeth, like the pointy, scary things. So they're messy eaters though, huh? Very messy eaters. Yes, if you go up to Ray Pool and you see the shells in there, that's because I haven't taken them out. But she's working on it. She's on it. But I'm working on it, okay.

SPEAKER_05 29:04

Leave her alone. Yeah. But I've I know that like similar to sharks that do sort of like have teeth that replace their teeth, like I've found the ray like dermal or dental plates or whatever they're called. Like, I've found those in the sand before. How like frequently are they like dropping those?

SPEAKER_02 29:21

I don't think it's very frequent, but I know that they will replace them continuously. Okay. As they yeah, as they lose them. As often as sharks do necessarily. I don't I don't believe so.

SPEAKER_05 29:30

I wish that if my teeth fell out, they'd just come back.

SPEAKER_02 29:33

Imagine. You don't have to get like a crown or anything. Yeah, it's like a free tooth? Yeah. They don't?

SPEAKER_05 29:38

They're not gonna come back? No, Madeline. I have bad news.

SPEAKER_03 29:41

Those are your last ones. That's it. Um well I'm assuming, you know, with a it's probably a lot more work to grow a plate than it is a tooth continuously, so it probably is a little less often if that makes sense. Speak for yourself. You grow plates to you. You growing plates over there? I have a lot of plates, don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_05 29:59

Um, well, that's sort of what I wanted to ask you, but I wanted to know what your favorite story has been personally working with the rays. What is your favorite thing about working with them, or what is your best ray story? My best ray story.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

Um, I love working at the rays because whenever they're one of the first exhibits I go to in the morning, and they're just always so excited and always, even if they're splashing and getting me wet or whatever, they're still just, I don't know, they're very routine and they kind of do the same thing every day, which is comforting to me. Yeah, it sounds weird, but um, and then whenever I go up and feed them, and as soon as I throw food in, they're all calm and they're all like doing they're just so happy to be eating, and like, okay, same. But um, I just love how I mean we talked about how they don't really have like specific personalities, but I do like how they're all kind of just little little cows, and they just kind of do their own thing and and they're really cute. So they have a good demeanor. Yeah, they have a good demeanor, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 30:58

Yeah. Um, Madeline will go over some of the questions we had from our listeners and social media, and we have some really great questions.

SPEAKER_03 31:05

We have some great questions, especially this first one, which is how silly are they?

SPEAKER_02 31:11

Scale of one to ten. Scale of one to ten, forty. No, um, I would say they're kind of silly. I mean, who splashes against the wall for no reason? Yeah, like really silly.

SPEAKER_03 31:22

They just got those little smiley faces. It does look like silly.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

I mean, they don't call them like ravioli or pancake, you know, or nothing. Yeah. That's amazing. Um, how do they sleep? Um, they will usually, if I mean, sometimes they do it in Raypool, but out in the wild too, they will kind of bury themselves under the sand with their wings to hide themselves. Um, and they just kind of chill on the bottom. Yeah. And in the afternoon. Yes. In the afternoon up at here at the aquarium, they will just be all kind of cuddled together, all kind of touching wings sometimes, and they just hang out there.

SPEAKER_03 31:56

Um separately from the conversation or the questions from social media, rays are a social media favorite.

unknown 32:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 32:04

Like, more than sharks. Shockingly. Like, I think if it went to the show, stars of the show. In order of like kind of our most like what gets the most engagement on social media, it's otters, of course. Um, pinnipeds, and then rays. Like above octopuses, rays perform more. Ooh, we're leaving that in. We'll see if Brooke listens to the podcast. I wanted to get your perspective on like why you think that is. I mean, they're cool, obviously, but but why do you think they're so up there? Why do you think they're so engaging?

SPEAKER_02 32:35

I think rays are just like we talked about, their f their shape is just so silly. And I think a lot of times they're either in cartoons, I think they're just very a very easy animal for kids to identify and to kind of know since childhood. So I mean that one they're so cool. They're so neat.

SPEAKER_03 32:53

Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. Um, do you have a favorite ray species? Maybe like it doesn't have to be one that you even work with because it sounds like Sansa. Sansa, yeah, exactly. Sansa's my heart. She's a uh individual already. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 33:06

Um I would say I love in the Shark Lagoon touchables, I love the blue spot rays. They are beautiful. They don't even look real. Like they look like someone painted them once.

SPEAKER_03 33:17

Yeah. Which we did not, we did not paint. Yeah, no paint through. No painting was a natural parent. Stop it. I've been painting them blue. Just counter three. Like imagine exclusive species at the aquarium of the Pacific.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

They just look, I don't know. They look like, yeah, like someone painted them when they drew them all. Thank you. Great job. Great job. They all look so cute.

SPEAKER_05 33:40

They're really, really cool. Are they more venomous? Like, why are they blue? Is it a warning coloration?

SPEAKER_02 33:46

It yeah, it I mean it might it might be a warning coloration. Um, I don't know, in that habitat where those rays live. But that wouldn't surprise me if that's why they were so like kind of unnaturally blue.

SPEAKER_03 33:56

Yeah. It's like almost like fluorescent blue when you look at them. Do you have a ray that you would like to work with in the future, a ray species? Um, you have one already here or a dream one that we would like brought in. Doesn't have to be a Pacific Ocean animal either. Sweet babies.

unknown 34:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:12

I do love whenever I dive in. Whenever I dive in Shark Lugoon, I do love diving with the giant reticulated ray that we have. She is such she's so big. She's the largest animal at the aquarium in size, in weight. And she doesn't like that belongs to Parker. Oh, right. Parker's, I don't know, 800 pounds or something.

SPEAKER_05 34:33

That's still so big.

SPEAKER_03 34:34

And he's heavy. He's 850, okay. Oh wow. But the reticul I have such a hard time saying this. Reticulated. Retic ray. Yeah. She's about like 400 pounds. Oh wow. That's 11 feet long. Biggest pancake I ever seen.

SPEAKER_05 34:49

She's 11 feet long?

SPEAKER_04 34:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:51

That's two Sarah's.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

I know. Can you that's huge?

SPEAKER_05 34:56

Just measure everything by how many Sarah's they have. Every ray gets measured in Sarah's neck. What a dream. So how long is her body? Because her body is not 11 feet. No, no, that's like her tail.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

Her tail is very long. So I don't know how long her b her long her body is, but I think it's majority tail.

SPEAKER_03 35:16

Majority tail. Her body's still 10 feet of tail and one foot. That's kind of like the eagle race looking.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

It's like eagle rays.

SPEAKER_03 35:24

Yeah, eagle rays. I mean, they're still big, but the tail is long.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

Yeah, I remember when well when we got them when they were do you remember when their eagle rays were little? Yeah, they're we I was a volunteer diver and we would feed them with a little because they're trained to like the purple cone shape. That's what's on their stretcher. So we would carry down a purple traffic cone with clams in it, and they would come up to it and they were, I don't know, like four feet. Yeah. Yeah. Little tiny. And now they're huge, but massive.

SPEAKER_03 35:50

Do you know how big the eagle rays get?

SPEAKER_02 35:52

Like in general? I don't know. How many saras? I know.

SPEAKER_03 35:56

60 Sarahs.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

Um I think they just I think they just weighed the female and she was or excuse me, the male, and he was around one between 150 and 200. They're so cool. I think he was 150.

SPEAKER_04 36:09

Those are some big animals.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Yeah. I know. They look like little pizza slice. I know, they're so cute. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:17

They kind of look like they have like a very, I don't know, like if their side profile is very distinctive. They look like human-ish, because it's like pointing. Anyway, are the eagle rays named that because of the shape of their like face?

SPEAKER_02 36:30

Yes, probably.

SPEAKER_05 36:31

Probably. Yeah. Probably. Very eagle-shaped face.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

Fun fact, the eagle ray in Trap Reef is named Elvis.

SPEAKER_03 36:37

Oh. Yes. I did not know that. Do you think that there's a ray fact that people would be the most surprised to hear?

SPEAKER_02 36:44

I have not seen. But some rays can actually jump out of the water. Obviously not here. But yeah, some rays can actually jump out of the water and back in.

SPEAKER_05 36:55

Do they get like a running start?

SPEAKER_02 36:57

A flapping start?

SPEAKER_05 36:59

Probably. Do you think that they belly flop? How bad would that hurt if they just like that?

SPEAKER_02 37:05

I'm assuming if they're coming up, they would kind of maybe go nose down, but maybe they learn over time not to just pancake.

SPEAKER_05 37:13

It'd be such a jarring sound to hear out in the ocean, just like a smack sound.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

Maybe that's why they're shaped that way. Yeah, to do that. Yeah, they were sharks and fingers.

SPEAKER_03 37:25

They flatten themselves. Maybe they want a belly flop harder. Do they communicate with each other in any way? Is there any sort of like social structure with yeah?

SPEAKER_02 37:34

Some rays will actually be solitary or a couple, and then some live in big, big, big aggregations with each other. Um, like I know I've seen videos of like drone footage of like thousands of rays congregated together. Um what are they up to? Uh flapping?

SPEAKER_05 37:50

I don't is it like confidential. Is it a breeding thing?

SPEAKER_02 37:54

Yeah, I'm assuming if it's that that many, yeah. I'm assuming. It's a lot of rays.

SPEAKER_05 37:59

A billion rays. They are cool to see those overhead shots though, and you can just see so many of them in the same place.

SPEAKER_03 38:06

Yeah. So neat.

SPEAKER_02 38:07

But do they communicate with each other in any way that you've noticed maybe or um not that I've noticed with my girls, but I'm assuming just with their spatial awareness and they've been with each other for so long, and so I'm they're like a little family.

unknown 38:20

So cool.

SPEAKER_02 38:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:21

If you had one thing that you wanted our listeners to take away from this, including the stingray shuffle. Oh yeah, I can't forget stingrays.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

Please do that. I would say that there's a lot of things about rays that maybe aren't super obvious or that people don't know, like difference between mannery and stingray, which we talked about. Did we talk about that? Yeah. Um I thought we just did it before. Um, and there's so many different species of rays out there. It's not just the batterys that live in the sand or the round rays that live in the sand. Um, so I would encourage people to go out and research, or if you're curious about something, um, find out as much as you can about it. I mean, I work with these batteries every single day, and I still, for this, had wanted to look up different facts and different things about them because there's still stuff that I don't know. And so I would just encourage people to keep researching what they're curious about, especially about rays, because they're so cool.

SPEAKER_03 39:13

Keep your curiosity up, keep your curiosity up. Send the rays of curiosity to Sarah yourself. No, it's Sarah Navarro's. She's got enough. Yeah, I guess. She has enough rays to us. We'll ask Sarah. I think we might have rays in every gallery right now. Let's see. Maybe not in northern specifically. Let me think.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

In that northern proper area? No.

SPEAKER_03 39:43

Northern proper. Oh, do we? Wait, we had little there was a little in um sandy bottom, right? That's the name of an exhibit. It's called Sandy Bottom. Why are you laughing at it?

SPEAKER_02 39:54

Because it's called Sandy Bottom. Anyways. No, I don't think there's any up there.

SPEAKER_03 39:58

Okay. So we have rays in just about every gallery here at the aquarium. So Sarah is talking specifically about the rays she works with, but I know we have Eagle Rays in Tropical. We have several species in Tropical of two. So if you come visit the aquarium soon, you'll be able to see sting rays pretty much everywhere. Come see the flappies. Yeah. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. I learned so much about rays, and I'm excited for our audience to do the same.

SPEAKER_02 40:21

Of course. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 40:29

Aquarium of the Podcific is brought to you by Aquarium of the Pacific, a 501 C3 nonprofit organization. In 2023, the Aquarium celebrates 25 years of connecting millions of people worldwide to the beauty and wonder of our ocean planet. Head to aquariumofpacific.org to learn more about our 25th anniversary celebration. Keep up with the Aquarium on social media at Aquarium Pacific on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_05 40:54

This podcast is produced by Aaron Lundy, Madeline Walden, and Scott Shaw. Our music is by Andrew Reitzma, and our podcast art is by Brandi Kenney. Special thanks to Cecile Fisher, Anita Viez, and our audiovisual and education departments, and to all of our amazing podcast guests for taking time out of their day to talk about the important work that they do. Podcific wouldn't be possible without the support of the Aquarium's donors, members, guests, and supporters. Thanks for listening.