You Can Train a Fish?!

In this episode, Madeline and Erin sit down with Aquarists Jackie Simpson and Emily Smith to explore one of the most fascinating and underappreciated parts of animal care at the Aquarium of the Pacific: target training. You might picture sea lions doing flips or birds following a hand signal, but target training reaches far deeper into the aquarium than most guests ever realize. From zebra sharks to tiny puffers, every animal at the Aquarium engages with its environment in ways shaped by the people who care for them.

In this episode:

• What target training actually is and why it matters for animal health and welfare
• How fish and invertebrates are trained differently from marine mammals and birds
• The story of Nandor the zebra shark, who figured out target training all on his own
• How Fern the zebra shark swims herself into the husbandry pool on cue
• The octopus who learned to sit on the edge of the basket instead of climbing in
• Freddie the Queensland grouper and how his target moved from the surface to a diver's chest
• What it looks like to target train archerfish using their own natural behavior
• Why sharks are actually pretty timid animals and what would really happen if you fell in the tank
• How Jackie and Emily found their way to the Aquarium of the Pacific and what they'd tell aspiring aquarists

Get involved:

Support the Aquarium of the Pacific, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, at pacific.to/donate. Your membership and donations make care like this possible every single day.

Episode resources:

• Transcript
• Michael the parrotfish enjoying his favorite snack, cilantro
• Learn more about animal care at the Aquarium of the Pacific

Stay connected: 

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you are subscribed to Aquarium of the Podcific wherever you are listening, and leave us a five-star review! It goes a long way in helping new listeners find the show. ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

Email us at podcific@lbaop.org! Follow the Aquarium of the Pacific across social media (@aquariumpacific) for fun animal videos, conservation updates, and more. Follow the podcast's own Instagram (@podcific) for episode updates and behind-the-scenes content.

Thanks for listening!

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:05

Hi, I'm Erin Lundy. And I'm Madeline Walton, and this is Aquarium of the Pod Civic, a podcast brought to you by Aquarium of the Pacific, Southern California's largest aquarium.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Join us as we learn alongside the experts in animal care, conservation, and more. Welcome back to Aquarium of the Pod Civic. My name is Erin Lundy, and I'm the manager of conservation initiatives here at the Aquarium of the Pacific. And I am joined, as always, by my wonderful co-host. That's you. That's me. That's you.

SPEAKER_04 0:35

I'm Madeline Walden. I'm the Aquarium's digital content and community manager. And today our episode is all about target training. Erin, what's target training? What? Target who? Oh yeah, you did leave halfway through.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Yes, sorry. During our target training episode, target training, by the way, is when you train animals via an object that is called the target. And usually you can train the animals to either track that object or to touch it, depending on sort of what the goal is. I left midway through the episode. And we didn't acknowledge it either. No, it's very awkward. I got a text that said, Where are you? You have to be here right now. And so I left. But importantly and critically, we were in the middle of our AZA inspection. So AZA is the Association of Zoos and Aquariums, and that is an organization that we are a part of, and we're very grateful to be a part of. And every five or so years, AZA conducts an inspection of every facility that is accredited through that organization. We are very proud that we are part of that. And so part of that inspection is that there are some staff interviews and some other things. So though we had planned our podcast at a certain time, the inspection took precedent over that. It was a busy week.

SPEAKER_04 1:40

I shouldn't have planned a podcast episode for that week with three husbandry staff members, but it was still a great episode. And we did it next. And I just I just duck out.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

So it just if you're hearing me.

SPEAKER_04 1:52

You just don't hear it. And it's not because she just shut down entirely.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

She literally just left the room. Sometimes I just go quiet. But that one I s because I left. You had to go. Yeah. And it was a very abrupt moment. So I apologize that I leave midway through this episode. However, we do have on Emily Smith and Jackie Simpson, and they are both aquarists. I think when people think about training the animals at the aquarium, their brain typically thinks seals, sea lions, sea otters, some sort of large mammal that is learning these things, even like our bird show and our ambassador animals. However, some of you might be surprised to find that there are actually a lot of animals at the aquarium that are trained in some way, shape, or form. Sometimes it is intentional and sometimes it is not. Animals are very smart and they pick up on differences in patterns and behavior cues, and so you might be accidentally training your animals at home by giving off certain cues when you are about to do something. And so target training with a lot of the fish and invertebrates, which is what we're talking about today, starts with, you know, usually the presentation of food tongs, or I started feeding this animal and its behavior changed when it noticed X or Y or Z in its environment. And so they can actually clue into that and start using that positive cue as a way to get an animal's attention so that if we had to do some sort of procedure or training or collect up this animal, they already have something that they gravitate towards. So it's actually a really cool episode that we talk a lot about how do you train a fish.

SPEAKER_04 3:19

How do you train a fish? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

How do you train a fish? And thankfully Emily knows. And thankfully Jackie knows. They're doing it every single day. Which is so cool. And I think that it kind of goes against the grain of what you typically think for marine mammals training, that actually everything is sort of trained in its own way. A lot of our animals have feeding stations that they go to. A lot of them have a specific object that they'll target on. And it can be really small animals, like a tiny dog faced buffer. Yeah. Or it can be really large animals like a copper.

SPEAKER_05 3:46

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 3:48

And also what happens is in return sometimes is that the animals are training our staff. Which I love that. They do. They train us for that.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

I'm sure a lot of pet owners can relate to that as well. Yeah. My cat definitely knows how to wake me up at 5 30 in the morning for breakfast because I wake up every time she does this meow routine and then wakes me up. So it works. Animals train us, we train animals, and all animals can be trained, including yourself. Ominous. Ominous. It's very ominous. But it is pretty cool to hear about. So I'm excited to talk to Jackie and Emily. And if I disappear midway through the episode, it's not because you were weren't excited to talk to them anymore, it's because you were needed somewhere else.

SPEAKER_04 4:26

Very important. We're grateful for your time that you could dedicate as a co-host. But it was a great episode.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

And I'm excited to listen to the rest of it.

SPEAKER_04 4:36

We spend the last part of it just talking. That's the best part is when you leave. So it was perfect timing. That's all right. Let's get into this episode. Today on the podcast, we have Jackie Simpson and Emily Smith. They are both aquarists here at the aquarium. Hi guys. Hello. Hello. Thanks so much for being here. That was nice. I liked it. We've been friends a long time. Avery's sake. I love it. Jackie, will you tell me a little bit about your role here at the aquarium? I know you're an aquarist, but what level are you and how long have you been here?

SPEAKER_02 5:03

Yeah, so I'm an Aquarist one. I've been employed at AOP for about four years now.

SPEAKER_04 5:08

Editors know since recording this episode, Jackie has been promoted. Jackie is officially an aquarist to congrats, Jackie.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

In the Tropical Waters Gallery. So lots of warm water, which is really comfortable and nice. That is nice.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

What about you, Emily? I'm an Aquarist too. I've been here about seven and a half, eight years. Right now I work with our temper gallery, which is all the cold water animals. I say that with a smile because I'm a little new in the gallery. I did come from warm tropical water, so still acclimating myself.

SPEAKER_04 5:38

So we have hot and cold here today. Yes. Yes, I love it.

unknown 5:41

I love it.

SPEAKER_04 5:41

So today the episode is specifically going to be around target training. Do either of you want to take on what target training is? So tell us a little bit about it.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

Yeah. So target training is how we can get an animal to come to a certain spot to do a certain behavior or be ready for a vet exam or a feet. Most most likely it's going to be about feeding. So an animal comes to an object. This could be any shape object, it could be any color. Usually it's like contrasting colors, and it's just something they're familiar with that's specific to that species. And if we put it anywhere in the exhibit, they will just swim right up, and usually we reward that behavior with a piece of food.

SPEAKER_04 6:22

You make it sound so easy, I think, to be clear. Like we are talking to two aquarists. They work with animals who are underwater. They work with mostly fish and inverts. And they're talking to fish. They're literally talking to fish. So I think a lot of people can relate at home in training their pets, but I don't think a lot of people realize you can train a fish. Oh yes. Oh yes. What about you, Emily? How does that how does training show up in your life target training in your role?

SPEAKER_03 6:44

It's just a great way for me to monitor who's eating what. You know, there every day I prep food for my exhibits that have all of my fish friends in it. And it's a great way for me to see who's eating, who's not eating. Maybe the whole system is not eating, or the I should say the whole population is not eating that well. And if I'm like, ooh, I have a little bit of extra, something for me to note down. Or if they eat everything very quickly, it's like, okay, that's something I can note down to. And again, it's a great way for them to come kind of to you, you could say, simply. And it helps with capturing them for a visit.

SPEAKER_04 7:20

Ah, definitely participating in their own healthcare, potentially. Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

I have a question for Emily already. So since you came from the tropical gallery and are now working with colder species, do you find that there's a difference in like the motivational level of the animals that you work with? Because I know warm animals tend to eat more just because their metabolism's faster. Is it harder to train the cold fish?

SPEAKER_04 7:42

Like cold fish, that's just a descriptor.

SPEAKER_03 7:44

Yeah. Yes and no. So yes, I did come from tropical exhibits where I even had Nandor and Lazlo, the zebra sharks, and they were easy to train. They're super food motivated. In fact, we can talk about it later, but I didn't even mean to target train them, and they just started doing it themselves. They're so small. But now I know they are. And then with our temperate gallery, we have, for example, a lot of leopard sharks, our blue cavern exhibit, and they are a little more silly when it comes to target training.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

I imagine temperate water just takes longer because you're not feeding them every day. So it's probably a longer process. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 8:20

Fewer sessions to work with them to actually get them to learn different things. We talked about that a little bit in a previous episode about eels, and I think people are surprised that some animals that live here at the aquarium aren't eating every single day. Oh yeah. And I'm sure target training can be a part of that in making sure that they are getting the amount that they need. What's an animal in your care, Emily, that doesn't eat every single day? Eels.

SPEAKER_03 8:39

I have one in the Night Crawlers exhibit, which it showcases our lobsters. And that eel, I think she'll eat like once every three weeks.

SPEAKER_04 8:46

Is that Sylvia?

SPEAKER_03 8:47

Sylvia. Yeah, yeah. We learned about here with Heidi. She's very cute.

SPEAKER_04 8:51

She's Heidi's favorite. That's her favorite eel. Did you know it? I took her eel. You're taking good care of her.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

She's hanging out. She's hanging out.

SPEAKER_04 9:00

Okay, so I want to back up a little bit just because I it just it's such a part of your guys' day-to-day, but I don't think you might realize like just how perplexing it is that you guys are training fish. I think a lot of people automatically assume that fish aren't an intelligent species, just in general. And so when we showcase things on social media or here at the aquarium just in shows, I think it's really exciting for people to see like how complex our animals are and how complex fish and vertebrates are. What are some of your favorite stories of training uh animals?

SPEAKER_03 9:31

Again, I can talk about Neandor and Laszlo, the zebra sharks. If anyone's heard in the past about them, they are four-year-old zebra sharks that I helped raise. And at the time they were in one of our shark babies exhibits in our Pacific Visions gallery. And at the time I was supposed to target train the blue masked Ray in there because he was supposed to go on to a bigger exhibit. And so Target Training would help me in that bigger exhibit to feed him, and he was just not that interested. And one day Nandor goes, Oh, I I get it. I get the assignment. Yeah, and so he just started doing it on his own. So I really like that story because it wasn't their time yet. But he goes, I get it. Yeah. Let me do it. Touch me get food.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

You get food. I'm gonna touch the thing and I'm gonna get food. Pretty smart. What are they targeting with? Like what part of their body do they touch to whatever object? For zebra sharks?

SPEAKER_03 10:23

Their nose.

SPEAKER_04 10:25

Super cute, yeah. Is that true for every animal? Like, what are you looking for to complete the target? Do you look for them to bump the object with their nose, or is it different depending on each animal?

SPEAKER_02 10:35

Typically, bumping is how we know. Okay, they know exactly where they're coming, but if it's just coming close to the target in the range, that is also good enough. They can boop it. Yeah. Just a boop. I love that. Jackie, what was your favorite? Oh, what my favorite is I trained one of our common octopuses, Chestnut, how to go into a basket because I wanted to get a weight on her every so often just to track her growth. And she took to it really quickly. So what I would do is I'd put an orange basket in the water and put a piece of food in it, and she learned very quickly that if she climbed into the basket, there would be a treat. But then she also learned that she is long enough to where she could just sit right on the edge of the basket and reach her arms in to grab the treat. So that became a little difficult because she was so smart, she was like, I'm not going all the way in. You can't take me out. So I had to work with her to, you know, the treat won't always be in there. You have to go to the bottom of the basket to get your treat.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Yeah. It's amazing how quickly animals learn to outsmart us in the things that we're trying to get them to do. And you're like, that works, and I get why you did it the way you did it.

SPEAKER_04 11:48

But it is what it is. Like you did complete the task. That's so funny. Yeah. Erin, actually, while we have you before you have to run away too when we get to your question. Are there do you see a lot of similarities between training animals in your department and birds, amphibians, and mammals between fishing and birds the way that they're trained?

SPEAKER_00 12:03

The birds and mammals do get trained, and a lot of it is largely similar, at least the foundational behaviors. I have yet to successfully train any amphibian to do anything. I believe that it is possible. I also just think that they are so unpredictable, and it is a little bit difficult to get an animal that is a visual predator to necessarily eat food at a target, and most frogs will only eat a live bug that's moving around them. But for our marine mammals, especially like our seals and sea lions and our sea otters, the target training is largely the same. Like you get them to eventually touch an object so that they can get reinforced for that. And I think that building off of that helps you establish a lot of other behaviors, like going in a basket would be the same as maybe going on the scale so that we can get a weight on our sea lions. Aaron Powell I have a question for you, Aaron. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:46

Do you think for the amphibians that they are targeted at all to the tongs or the tweezers you use for food, or is it because the food is wiggling at the end?

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Aaron Powell I think it's a good question. I think you could describe it as targeting, but they will if you lower empty tongs, they will just bite the tongue.

SPEAKER_04 13:07

That sounds like a boop. That sounds like their version of it.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Like okay, it's an inside of mouse target. I'm pretty sure that's how that works. I think you could do it, and I have heard we have we've tried to train our smoky jungle frogs, which are nocturnal, and only come out at night. With big guys, too. Yeah. They're called two-handers, because you need two hands to handle them. But we tried to train them to come out on cue to the song Welcome to the Jungle. So we would put out a food and play the song. And I don't think it worked. I don't know how well they hear. It didn't work that well. But I did have the team going in there frequently playing Welcome to the Jungle. It sounds like this is target training yourself. I was it was enrichment for me. Yeah, exactly. But I don't think we successfully trained the frogs to do anything. They certainly understood that there was a plate of food there. We did enrichment for them two days ago where we just put food in a bowl and they didn't even find it. So I don't it's challenging sometimes, depending on the animals. I'm sure you guys have experienced trying to train them to do something complex. But I do think that for maybe some of the species, the tongs are starting to be like a target that they do orient towards. So I think we have something there.

SPEAKER_03 14:16

Yeah, I ask because there's been times where I used tongs to feed an animal that was far away that wasn't necessarily target trained. But then later I would use those really long tongs and pick up something that fell in the exhibit, and all the fish would go straight to it and they were like booping it.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

They know the tongs. Yeah, the tongs is the target. I'll have to ask the frogs. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_04 14:36

What do you think about this? I feel like in like 20 years you're gonna write a paper like a scientific journal about how trick into the jungle.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

I don't think they can hear it. I think that's where I went wrong. You do need to, so orienting back towards the fish and reference, I do think that it is important that whatever cue you're presenting to the animal is something that is perceptible to that species. And so we had a question from our social media that is basically like how differently do animals perceive the target and are all targets visual? And so do either of you have any experience integrating maybe it's not the target, but some other cue that isn't just a visual cue for training purposes. Oh yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

For a while we used noise for our green sea turtle, copper. Did you also use Welcome to the Jungle? No. We just put like a PVC in and like hit it twice because Tropical Reef is such a large exhibit. If you could use some sort of sound to get the animal's attention, that's great. Also, I think Fern, our female zebra shark in Shark Lagoon, is also trained to come into the husband she pool when she hears the sound of the gate opening. So if she's sleeping on the bottom and we open that gate, she usually gets right up and comes, swims around over. So she doesn't even need a target to come into the pool. She knows just based on that sound, it's time to come in.

SPEAKER_04 15:54

That's so cool. They're so smart. That's amazing. Speaking of tropical reef and your work in tropical reef, we have prey species and predator species being housed together in the same habitat. And people always ask, like, you know, is that a live food opportunity for them or is there any sort of interactions in the exhibit? And really that is mitigated by the your training, right, and the target fitting that you're doing. So can you talk a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Yeah, so specifically in Shark Lagoon, we have every shark in there is trained to come to a different target, and we do have tropical fish in the exhibit. But the sharks are fed so often that they do not feel the need to eat the fish on the exhibit. And we also put fish in there that are faster, smarter, know how to hide from a shark. So it's just it's strategic what animals we keep in the system with a predatory animal. But yes, sometimes our gravy shark gravy, she will chase the fish around a lot because that just is natural for her. That's what she wants to do. But she is fed four times a week from a target. So she knows that she's getting food, but she does the natural chasing every now and then. But it's not to eat, it's just to have some fun.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

And do you think good for her indeed? Do you think that so what is the normal frequency for a gray rave shark to eat like in their natural habitat if they were out in the ocean? Do they they don't eat four times a week?

SPEAKER_02 17:15

Yeah, they're they're arbitrationistic, so it's whenever they get the chance to eat, they will. So her having a schedule of when she's going to eat, like she is guaranteed to get food four times a week, which is more than what she would actually need. So she doesn't even need to eat all four times, but she's being offered the food four times, and typically she does eat every time. Good for her indeed.

SPEAKER_04 17:38

What about in your habitats, Emily? Do you in any of your habitats is there a prey predator species being housed together?

SPEAKER_03 17:44

Currently, not so much. I don't really have that issue. All my rockfish are living together pretty well. It's going off of topic a little bit, but the only kind of predation I'm seeing is my within my lobster exhibit, in that if one molts, it's an easy target. So when I have to keep an eye out for that, I know. Speaking of it. So I have to keep an eye out for when one molts or is getting ready to molt, and I just place them elsewhere. So they're safe and they can harden up. Do they do you target train the lobsters? No, I think that is one that they would never listen. They are so funny. They're they have I don't know, they have like an attitude of like a cat, I guess. They're just in their own kelp, they're fine, don't touch me. But they are fully aware when it is feeding time, so I don't know if my body's the target when I show up.

SPEAKER_04 18:36

The uniform is the target.

SPEAKER_03 18:38

So like Emily means food, but other than that, we're not gonna listen to anything she says. I mean, it could also be just me opening the net jump barrier, I'm sorry, to the exhibit, and everyone kind of rushes up because they think they're getting fed. So it might be like how Fern knows that the when the gate opens, she gets food if she goes in.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

There's certainly like individual cues that our animals pick up on. And like I don't know how frequently you see it with animals that are eating four times a week, but our seals and salines that eat four times a day start to just look at the door periodically when it's time for a feed. And that isn't necessarily something that we want them to do, and so we do try to vary up their feed times a little bit so that we mitigate any sort of stereotypical behavior and things like that. But animals are so smart at predicting patterns and understanding a change in their environment means food is coming because that's like the most reinforcing thing to most of these guys. So it is amazing to see how quickly they pick on on individual cues. And we have our magnificent tree frogs, the minute you open the back of their exhibit, they all just turn and stare at you, which is very cute, but is also a little bit creepy.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

Fish definitely do that too for our core predators exhibit. Anytime I'm up there on the platform, they all show up at the surface and are just staring at me, like, oh yeah, we're gonna get fed, we're gonna get fed, we're gonna get fed. But it's like, guys, I'm just up here to do something else.

SPEAKER_03 19:52

I have that with Toast the Two-Spot Octopus in our cell gallery. As soon as I open the ladder, I think she feels the movement and she's just at the top, like it's already ready.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

I know it's time. It is kind of cute though, because then you're like, you guys are so happy to see me, and you're like, it's not me.

SPEAKER_04 20:06

It's not the time. No. So you're talking about a really right, wide range of animals here, talking about fish. You're talking about, granted, sharks are also fish, but sharks and octopuses, and they all have varying levels of and lobsters as well, yes, don't forget. Can you take me through let's stick to fish?

SPEAKER_00 20:23

I know how to talk about it. I plead the fish. I plead the fish.

SPEAKER_04 20:25

What did I say the other day? Leave a four store review. Let's go back to training a fish. How does that look beginning to end? Say we have a new species on exhibit, needs to be target trained, and just went through quarantine, was just placed on habitat. Where do you start? It's not like you can talk to it.

SPEAKER_03 20:43

Yeah, I mean sometimes you can just start quarantine. That animal might be living by itself in a small smaller area while it's going through its quarantine treatment, and our quarantine staff can actually help introduce targets during that time.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Yeah, quarantine is actually a great time to start because the animal usually is isolated. And you can introduce an object whenever you feed, and then once the animal goes onto an exhibit, if you bring that object over, it recognizes that, especially if it's moving into a bigger space. But from beginning to end, how you target train is you just pick an object, any object, anything can be a target. Usually contrasting colors are great, and you just kind of introduce that into the water every time you feed. And then if the animal gets closer and closer to the target, you want to give them better and better treats. Especially if you have if an animal has a favorite food, if the animal approaches the target, I'll give them that type of food. So they kind of recognize oh, if I I mean near this thing, I'll get my favorite food. And then it takes a lot of patience, which is definitely the hardest part because I have none. So it takes a long time, but you just gotta give them time, they will eventually learn how to do it, and then once they are trained, you gotta keep up with that training. So every feed, you gotta make Sure, that target is present so they don't forget the behavior. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:03

I think you know, Jackie and I were talking about this last week about a memory I had where the zebra sharks baby and Gatsby were target trained to the same target, and it was my task to have Gatsby have her own target. And so introducing both targets was kind of odd, and then slowly separating them. And eventually Gatsby learned I need to start eating at this new target. But there were times where the targets were like four feet apart from each other as we slowly brought them apart, and she'd go between them and kind of go, Oh, which one is this is the right idea?

SPEAKER_04 22:35

You know, it's really interesting too because it sounds like it's really enriching to them. You're making them use their brains, making them, you know, Brooke always talks about like she's like, I don't like giving easy meals. I like to mimic the environment that they would have in the wild. So really I think is beneficial for them to be trained and have this opportunity to use their big brains. You were talking about objects that you use. Can you talk a little bit about some of the different objects? Because I know it's varies for each animal and each exhibit.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

Yeah. So for a lot of the sharks, we have bucket lids, so different colored bucket lids. Sometimes we'll put like tape on them to make an X. So they vary in some way. We also can use like Kongs, like the dog toy. We use those a lot for our turtles just because they're really strong and because turtles love to bite things. So if the target's not durable, it's not gonna last. Yeah. So colorful congs.

SPEAKER_03 23:27

Yeah. Usually things we can find around the aquarium. Like bucket lids. Bucket lids, that's the way it's a good idea. I think one time I used a red washer that I found, which hopefully didn't belong to something important. But it was the size of my thumb, so I was able to use that to target train a specific puffer fish. Cute.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Was it the dogfish? It was. I was gonna ask you about the dogfish, but I have a I have another question first before that. This is a very weird question, and it's okay if there's no answer. The seals and sea lions have a fixed buoy target that is the same buoy and it is the same size and it looks the exact same for all of them. And then for sea otters, you have a slightly smaller PVC cap target. And I was just thinking, like, relative to their body size, it's you know, half the size of their head, and it is something that is relatively durable, so that if anyone chose to bite it, it would survive that. But like for choosing a target object for a fish or an animal that lives in a really big habitat, or just how do you choose the size and general shape of what that target object is? Because I imagine a bucket lid for a shark makes sense because it's a big visual cue in a large system versus like a little washer for a dogfish would be a little bit more size appropriate. And so, like, do you ever go really big relative to the size of the animal? Is it more dependent on the size of the enclosure or sort of what goes into the thought process on what object you're choosing to start cueing them in?

SPEAKER_03 24:44

Yeah, I've I've totally used a large target at first to get the animal used to the target first, or at least to have them mess up less. Like they don't have to move their heads around a specific point. You know, you have over a foot of fuel to just touch, and then if you wanted to over time start to shoot it.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

That's interesting. I just never really thought about like you might never be able to find the target you're starting with if you started way too small in Trop Reef.

SPEAKER_02 25:09

Yeah, and it could be all sorts of objects like our cowfish, Mr. Moo. He's targeted to a net. Oh. So we just have a rubber net that we put into his tank, and he knows when that rubber net is there, he could swim into it. Which is great for him because he's so much slower than a lot of the other fish. And the fish are afraid of the net, because the net means you know you're being caught. But Mr. Moo knows the net is food. Special place to meet. That's so cute. Yeah, so he just like swims into the net and then he sits in there, and then we go, Oh, here's the beats. Yes. Good for Mr. Moo.

SPEAKER_04 25:43

Yeah. We love Mr. Moo. He has a whole fan club on social. Do you want to ask your dog face?

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Oh, yeah. I just I remember, Emily, at one point you had done a presentation on training a dog face puffer. Was that what the name of the fish species was? That was you, right? I don't think so. Or at least you had told I specifically remember you telling me about it, and you had a picture that you sent me for a communications email. Oh yes, I think it's a good idea. And it was a dog face puffer fish, and it was very cute. You had started training because this animal in particular wasn't eating because he she now was too small and a little too shy, and it was just a very cute story. And so, how shy is she? How's Patrice doing? Patrice is shy.

SPEAKER_02 26:23

She's a little more bold than she used to be. But Emily Target trained her too well, and Patrice got too round.

SPEAKER_05 26:31

So she's a puffer. She's fine.

unknown 26:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 26:36

She actually started training too well where she bit me one time.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

Was that the washer on your finger? Yeah. So then the washer became not on the thumb anymore, and then we're good. Yeah. Do puffer fish have like a beak that they Yes. Are you okay?

unknown 26:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:52

There's training happening back and forth between you guys and the animal.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

They trained you not to put the washer on your finger. Yeah. And here we are.

unknown 26:58

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

Good for Patrice. I just remember you telling me the story of this tiny little fish that was too shy to eat. And I'm glad that she's doing well now and is too round because good for her. That means she learned.

SPEAKER_03 27:09

Yeah, it was really cute because at the time I'd be feeding the whole exhibit. And it was just this cute puffer fish kind of staying a few feet away and just hoping for some crumbs and eventually gain some confidence. And some weight.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Good for her.

SPEAKER_04 27:24

Oh, speaking of divers, okay, so in larger exhibits like Tropical Reef, we have divers in the water at the same time that you are target feeding above. Can you talk a little bit about what that looks like? I feel like it's very choreographed.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

Yeah. So there are some animals that we feed via diver, like our Queensland grouper, Freddie Mercury. Yeah. Freddie Mercury, the Queensland Grouper, and Spotty, our mangrove ray. So they each have a target. And with Freddie, we actually started feeding him at the surface. So he was trained to come to a target at the surface. And so that made it really easy to switch into diver. Because then we had a diver wear the target. So when they'd put on their BC, they would strap the target to their chest. And from what is his target? It is an orange bucket lid with some black tape on it. So the diver would wear that orange bucket lid on their chest and then go down to his station where we the desired area we want him to eat. And so he recognized the target from the surface and he would swim up to the diver. And then whenever he came up to the diver, he would just hand him a piece of food. So he knows not to look at the surface. There's no other target that looks like Freddy's target. So he knows it's his.

SPEAKER_04 28:38

He knows it's his. And why transition from the surface to underwater? Is that just a space issue? Because I know there's a lot happening up there as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:45

So as he was getting bigger, feeding him at the surface would be a little more difficult and very splashy. So and plus, we have a dive show that we like to do and it's fun for guests to watch that feed. It's very cool. Yeah. So it's more beneficial to have him eat in the water column. Also, that's more natural for him. And plus the guests get to see his natural behavior, which is really cool.

SPEAKER_04 29:08

That's awesome. You talked about stationing. So I think that's a really interesting part of this because it's not like you can just put the target anywhere in the exhibit. You are also at the same station. Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 29:19

Or is that kind of does it depend on the Yeah, we feed them at the same station, but we also want the animal to be able to move stations if we need to. So typically we feed them in the same spot, but if we needed to change it, depending on how well that animal is trained to the target, we can do that too. What would be the reason to switch the station just space or new animals or yeah, new animals, different exhibits. Right now we're actually in the process of getting our gray reef shark in Shark Lagoon to eat with the black tips. So we're actually moving her station to the other side of the tank, which has been challenging, but you know, she's getting better and better every feed.

SPEAKER_04 29:59

That's so cool. That's awesome. Yeah. Are you seeing that same kind of do you do stationing? I know the exhibits you're taking care of currently, Emily, are a little bit smaller compared to something like Tropical Reef. So are you stationing in a certain spot every single time, or does it just depend on the exhibit and the feed?

SPEAKER_03 30:14

Yeah, I'm pretty much in the same position or space because, like you said, my exhibits currently are much smaller, but it does depend on where I'm standing if the platform is longer. So I do try to switch things up a little bit. That's as much as I can really do for some of the exhibits. Very cool.

SPEAKER_04 30:32

I want to talk a little bit about the animal care that comes alongside of this. So not only are you training them for opportunities to eat, we're also training them for opportunities to participate in their own health care. What are some of the things that a fish receives as far as health care goes? Do they do blood draws or do they do, you know, any ultrasounding that they're able to do while you're target training?

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Yeah. So for our sharks, if they get a vet exam, it's usually blood work. Our zebra sharks right now have been getting a lot of ultrasounds because they're a part of the star study. So being having them trained to come into the Hatchy pool and being used to vet interaction is really great. A great example is Fern, our zebra shark, in Shark Lagoon. She is so well trained that we can have her swim into the pool all on her own, and one Aquarus just needs to be in the water with her, and then we could flip her into tonic immobility. She's really used to doing that. And then the vet can come in and do her ultrasound while only one Aquarus is holding her. So it's she's easy. Super easy. Way less stress on the animal, way less stress on the staff, way less stress for the other sharks in the exhibit. Because if you're working with one animal and you're trying to corral it into a certain area, not only is that animal stressed, but it affects everyone else in the exhibit because they feel that energy. So it just having an animal really well trained to come to a certain area where a vet can perform whatever they need to perform is super beneficial.

SPEAKER_04 32:10

That's awesome. Emily, do you have any star students in your care someone animal that was just very easy or makes it very easy?

SPEAKER_03 32:17

Yeah, but I don't have him anymore because maybe he was too easy or too good. I used to have the chili pepper rockfish, and I believe he's the only chili pepper rockfish that we have here at the Aquarium of the Pacific. And he was in our Beauty in the Deep exhibit, and I loved him. He just had the cutest little long face. And so he was really easy to, I guess you could say, station train above that exhibit. He was always the first one up when it was feeding time, and he loved eating gel food and big pieces of shrimp. And so recently it was time that he moved to a bigger exhibit. He was getting a little chunky, which is my maybe my fault. But because this is a pattern maybe. But I love him. We have favorites. Yeah. But he was easy to bring up to the surface, feed a little bit, and literally net him out. And now he lives in one of our surge channel exhibits.

SPEAKER_04 33:09

Very cool. Is he still doing any target training, or is that more of like a scatter feed that he's participating in now? I believe that's a scatter feed.

SPEAKER_03 33:15

It is a larger exhibit, and the area that allows the Aquarus, which is Brooke, to stand feed is very small. So she's just mostly doing, or probably 99% of the time, a scatter feed in there.

SPEAKER_04 33:28

Very cool. So those are animals that are very or seem like they're easier to train. You talked about how lobsters are basically impossible to train. Is there a story of an animal that just like wasn't having it with any of any training? Jackie's like, I'm really good at it. So no.

SPEAKER_03 33:47

We've had issues with male zebra sharks historically. Just going, I I'm cute enough that I'm not gonna be able to do that. So Nandor and Laszlo were kind of an anomaly. Yeah. I think so. Yeah, I mean Laszlo was Nandor learned to target train first, and then Laszlo became the star player doing that. And Nandor, I think, is still getting a minus in his target training. Target training. Pretty good. Pretty good, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Yeah. Our female gray reef shark in Shark Lagoon is target trained, but she'd rather not be. She spends her whole the whole feed session trying to steal food from somebody else. Like she loves to chase the black tips around. If the black tips drop a piece, she's on it. It is the journey for her. Yes. And she at the end of the feed, like the last five minutes after everyone else is done, she will then come up to her target and she'll come up, boom, like she's super fast to feed. But it's more like, ugh, fine.

unknown 34:41

Come to my target.

SPEAKER_04 34:42

Fine. It's like you're it this is such an easy meal for you. Like you can just come here and eat, but she has to do something about the chase right now.

SPEAKER_02 34:48

It's the thrill of stealing.

SPEAKER_04 34:50

She's a thief. She is.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

She's a kleptomaniac. Yes. But now that we're feeding her with the black tips, we're like, okay, this is more her game. You know, she can try, but she's like, nah, that's not coming to that target. Get that target on my face.

SPEAKER_03 35:04

Well, I know you talked about your common octopus being really good at target training, and I am currently caring for the two-spot octopus toast. And I know she has the capability of being target trained, but she, I want to say, is like a wild girl, and she doesn't want to target train. She just wants to interact with anything. So I feel like I could use any object and she'll just be at the surface wanting to interact with it. So I don't know if this is like a productive form of target training because she's just presents herself. So I feel she might be a little impossible to target to one thing because it's just ready.

SPEAKER_02 35:41

I mean, they're individuals, they all have different personalities. Like our previous common octopus, chestnut, super easy to train. Like I would just open up the curtain and she'd present herself at the top. And yeah, super easy to interact with. But our current common octopus, cinnamon, no. If it's not on the bottom of the exhibit, she don't care. So it's a big species specific. It's animal specific. It's animal specific. Yeah, because I could be at the top of the exhibit, and it is a large exhibit for a common octopus. And if I'm doing anything at the surface or even mid-column, she ignores it. She does not. She doesn't look up. She just does not care about it. It's not, you know, I just my rocks and my sand is all she cares about.

SPEAKER_04 36:26

And in that exhibit, too, she's also housed with other species. Do you see any interaction between her and the other animals?

SPEAKER_02 36:34

Yeah. So there's some other fish in there. There's some blue-green chromos and some Australian stripees. And when she grabs her food, she kind of like holds it close. And then if they try and swim up, she'd be like, with all of her arms and like just try and punch them all away. And it's just they never learn. They were like, oh, I want that. Whatever you got. I I want it. I want that too. And she's like, go away. Boom. Karate choppy. I love that. Yeah, it's very funny to watch. But you know, she's a lot smarter than anyone else in there. So her food never gets stolen. Yeah. What are you feeding your animals mostly? Well, the sharks get a lot of fish. So they get like mullet, mackerel, mahi mahi, which they do have their favorites too. The black tips love mullet. That's their number one. They'll eat that all day, every day, and they hate mackerel. But we have to give them a variety. They can't eat the same thing every day. So we offer them different types of fish all the time. Sometimes they get fun stuff like tuna. That's like an enrichment for them. Mahi mahi. You know, they're like, eh, I had that yesterday. I don't need that. I don't need that today. What about you, Emily?

SPEAKER_03 37:40

What are you feeding your animals mostly? Mostly invertebrates. So they'll eat a lot of scallops, shrimp, squid, clam, and I'll chop it up to various sizes depending on the animal's mouth size. They'll get, you know, I I would say the lobsters and the crabs that I have are a little bit more like scavenger-like. So they'll kind of pick up anything I throw in as long as it's the appropriate size. Sylvia a few months ago learned that she likes a full-size squid. So that has been fun. It has really caught her attention. And then a few months later, she decided that wasn't her thing anymore. So now she's kind of into clam, which I don't know if I've ever known an eel enjoying clam over other things like a Cape Blyn or a juicy squid.

SPEAKER_04 38:26

Interesting. So you're seeing like the dynamic change. And I guess due to being able to target between them, you can track that in real time. Like, oh, she's not as interested in this versus scatter feed.

SPEAKER_02 38:35

Scatter feeds are definitely hard. In coral predators, I have a regal angelfish, and she is very particular about what you give her. Some weeks she only wants scallop. And then you try to give her scallop the next week, she's like, ew. So regal. I actually hate this. Yeah. It's like, where's my squid? And it's just like, oh, excuse me. So like I have to provide so many different options because I'm like, just eat something. And she does like a variety of things, but it's gotta be that specific specific on the week.

SPEAKER_04 39:06

I can relate to that. Yeah. I feel like sometimes I'll like go down a rabbit hole of like, I love this candy, I'm craving this candy so much, or I love this food, and then it's like, no, I ate it too much. I have the ick now.

SPEAKER_03 39:16

I don't want to eat that. You know, I used to really see that with our sand tiger shark big guy when we used to still have a very special shark. There'd be times where he just wanted mackerel and it had to have its head.

SPEAKER_04 39:27

And then head on mackerel only.

SPEAKER_03 39:30

A full mackerel. He had to see his prey. And then he just got over it one day, and we had to quickly learn he wanted a big piece of Mahi instead. He got over it.

SPEAKER_04 39:40

It's dynamic to have to switch up so quickly too. It's like, okay, I did easy feed, I'm gonna go feed big guy. I got his mackerel, all good, and then suddenly turning his nose up at it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

And sharks are so funny too because people think they're like really scary animals, but they're afraid of everything. So, like grabbers, like what you use to feed them, it that's super scary to them. And like big guy, too. Like, if you move the grabbers too fast, he was out of there. Like it's like, oh my god, he'd be so afraid. Or like he wanted to ambush him. Yeah, he did. Like our gray reef shark. Yeah, she our gray reef shark likes certain grabbers. So like we're moving her target right now, but we're using a different set of grabbers. And it's like, is she not coming over here? Because these are not the grabbers she likes. So it's very complicated. Problem solving. It is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:26

I love that you talked about sharks being misunderstood. I think people automatically assume that the second there is any sort of presence of food in the water, then they're all in the same spot or they're chasing each other around, which seems like there's a little bit of chase happening sometimes depending on the animal. But really, they're pretty timid animals.

SPEAKER_02 40:42

Oh, yeah. I get guests sometimes they'll come up and ask me, like, what would happen if I fell into the shark exhibit? It's like if you fell into the shark exhibit, my sharks would be on the other side of the tank. They'd be like, What was that? What was that? Help me.

SPEAKER_01 40:53

Mom, I'm scared. Mom, Jackie, please.

SPEAKER_04 40:57

Yeah, no, I think it's I think it's really interesting. I feel like we do a really good job of telling people and explaining, especially during feeds, when we have our educators out there about how timid they are naturally and how anything just how people automatically assume sharks are so scary, but really they're just a little scared. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:15

They're spooked. They're the scared ones. Yeah, and I think it's always the ones that you think are the scariest, like the ones with the teeth out that are gonna be. Yeah, and he's the most timid. But then you see there's zebra sharks that are just so chill, and you would think it's the other way around.

SPEAKER_04 41:30

Totally. I loved storytelling around Big Guy when we had him. So just to give the listeners some context. So we had a sand tiger shark, he was iconic here. Um he was on every single sign, everything to do with sharks, had a big toothy grin, big guy. And he passed away a couple years ago, but I loved getting to storytell around him because I always heard that he was the most polite animal to be in there, despite being kind of the scariest looking. And it just made me so happy that he, you know, he would get out of the way of the divers, he was, you know, not coming right up when it was feeding time, which might have been a little frustrating on your guest's part sometimes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

Come here and eat, it is time to eat. We would feed him with the black tips, and it was so funny because he was like this giant shark, and the black uh the black tips are smaller. And the black tips love to steal his food. That was the guy. And he'd be like right before he grabbed it, they'd swim up and take it from him. And he's like, oh, but no retaliation. He's just like, oh, okay. But yeah, I mean he was awesome for the most part, but he did love to play a game with the divers, which was how close can I get to you before you notice I'm here. So if you were looking at him, he would never come close, but sometimes he'd play the game. Well, he was so slow.

SPEAKER_03 42:34

Yeah. Like I said, he wanted to ambush the grabbers early because he's an ambush predator. So sometimes he'd be so far away, you'd be doing work, and then you just notice all of a sudden he was just a few feet away presence here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:46

And he did have a big presence too, but yeah, it's just what a good guy. Yeah, big guy. That's awesome. Over in our hearts. I know, truly, truly. Okay, before I move on to social media questions, like there's anything you haven't touched on too much or anything you would like to do.

SPEAKER_02 43:00

Yeah, I mean, one thing I can talk about is archer fish. Yeah, please, that's a great thing. Thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, so Target Training Archerfish is actually really cool because with Target training them, you're actually bringing out their natural behavior. So the archer fish that we have in the archerfish exhibit, they have a target that's like a green circle. It's like plastic that we cut out and we have it on a stick. So we hold it over the water, and then I will like paste some brine shrimp onto the bottom so it doesn't fall off immediately. And I hold it up, and then they could see it, and they see the brine shrimp, and they're trained now to see the green circle, and then they would spit water up at the target, and that's how they got the food down. So it really encouraged them to use their natural behavior. Otherwise, if you're just scattering food in, then they're never gonna spit.

SPEAKER_04 43:49

They're not using And that's a good animal Are there other animals that we have that utilize anything like that? No, not really, right? I guess an octopus could shoot water if they wanted to, but we've seen it because. And and we've seen that and they do that. But yeah, archerfish naturally have this ability. And so that's how they're eating mostly in the wild. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_02 44:06

Yeah. So they're eating insects and stuff that they see on branches and sticks. They have these great big eyes with really great vision that they can see what's happening on the other side of the water. That's so cool.

SPEAKER_04 44:17

Well, speaking of eyes, you guys are dealing with this is a question that came in from our social media. You guys are dealing with animals with different eye placements across the board. You have octopuses who are on either side and they have full 360 vision. And then you have fish who are very like skinny and trying to find a way to explain it really well, but they're not necessarily seeing like one side or the other depending on the eye. So does that affect your ability to train them at all or the tools you use to train them? That's a really good question.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

Yeah, because I don't think so. I mean, as long as you understand the animal, you can adapt to whatever their needs are. I mean, like I said with the octopuses, cinnamon is a definitely wants to eat stuff on the bottom where chestnut was like give me something at the surface. So you just gotta have to adapt to what they want to do naturally. And the more you find that middle ground to where I want you to do this, but you want me to do this, it helps a lot when it comes to their training. But as far as eye placement, you know, as long as you know who you're working with and visually what they can see, what they can't see, that's how you pick your target. Turtles are they could see a lot of color. So picking something bright and vibrant can really help them. We use red congs for our turtles, and they are very trained to come to that red kong. They are dedicated to that. And we have red grabbers that we feed them with. So sometimes they mistake the grabbers for the Kong and they'll bite the grabbers too. So that color contrast that they see, like, ah, that's where I need to be.

SPEAKER_04 45:46

I love seeing that immediacy of you guys throwing the Kong into the exhibit and just like, where like I don't even know where the turtle is, and then just suddenly just zoom here comes Lou, just all the way up to the surface. It's true fishing, it's true fishing.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

Yeah, it's true.

SPEAKER_03 45:58

It is, it is like fishing. And I don't know how far you want to get into like the topic of body shapes, but if you've noticed there's a lot of prey animals who have eyes that might be a little bit closer together, and then there's prey animals that have eyes on either side, like completely opposite sides of their body. And that's probably gonna help them look for the predators, and then for the pre predators, their eyes being closer together and more, you know, they're looking directly, looking for their prey. So getting that question, it kind of makes me like the wheels turn a little bit about are we is it easier to target train the animals that are more predatory?

SPEAKER_04 46:35

Yeah, that's interesting. So I'm gonna have to think on that one.

SPEAKER_02 46:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:39

Because yeah, most of the animals that are targets are predators.

SPEAKER_04 46:42

I was gonna say, yeah. That's typically what you're targeting.

SPEAKER_03 46:45

Yeah, yeah. And then the majority of my animals now don't have eyes. So they are probably never gonna be target trained and they're stationed or I'm station-trained because I have to go to them because they are anemones or muscles in one area for the rest of their lives.

SPEAKER_04 47:01

I would love to learn more about that. How do you feed animals without eyes or animals that don't interact in any way?

SPEAKER_03 47:07

There's so many different ways. So right now I feed a lot of copepods into my exhibits and I just pour it in and I let it just go all over the water column. And in that way, I can ensure that all these invertebrates are receiving what they need. Then there's other ways too, like for our limpets, I can kind of put a little bit of nori under them and they can scrape on that algae. Or if we have an enemies that are vibrant and big and beautiful and super present, you we can literally hand them a piece of shrimp and cut it up to the size that works for them.

SPEAKER_04 47:39

Very cool. It you guys are so talented because across the board you're feeding such a variety of animals, and then you're also having to do so many interactions with them. So I'm just very impressed, and I appreciate you guys coming on to teach our audience a little bit about what your day-to-day looks like because it's fascinating. It feels like you are I was gonna say like parenting, which I'm sure you could understand just that we're mobs, yeah. Exactly. It's just like it's so different for animal. And I'm sure our get our listeners who have kids or also have pets even can understand like probably one day I love this tree or one day I love this snack, and then the next day I never want to see that again. And how dare you feed that to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm that way. So exactly. It's a damn dynamic that you definitely have to manage. Okay, can you guys both talk a little bit about backing it up in the earlier your earlier years, how you came to the aquarium, what your background is, because a lot of people who listen to our podcast are very curious about how they can become an aquarius one day or how they can, you know, deal with picking animals and picking out their favorite Kong toys. So can you talk about your background a little bit? You want to start, Jackie?

SPEAKER_02 48:39

Yeah. So I got my degree in marine science at Cal CSU Monterey Bay. Go otters. Uh so I went to school there, got my degree, and then after I got my degree, I moved back home, which is in the LA area, and I started volunteering. So I volunteered as uh in the husbandry department and I volunteered in Shark Lagoon. So I got to get, you know, my feet wet with training animals firsthand and working with sharks and rays and learning all the different personalities. And I did I was a volunteer for about five years, and then I also interned during that time. And I also worked full-time at a wholesaler called Sea Dwelling Creatures, and working there really that was a game changer for me. That set separates the boys from the men. You know, you're doing everything, you're doing husbandry, you're doing water quality, you're doing life support, vet stuff, you know, you're you're everything. And these fish come in from all over the world, and you gotta help identify them. And if they're skinny, you gotta make sure they're getting in the right food and good enough food to go to whatever aquarium or facility that they're going to, and just making sure they're healthy if they come in with any parasites or diseases, knowing what medications to dose to give to them to get them in the best state. That was a big thing for me. I learned so much about tropical fish and tropical fish care from a facility like that. And I knew I always wanted to be here. The Aquarian Pacific, this is the dream job. So, you know, I worked really hard. I volunteered, I interned, I got a job in the field before I could even try to apply to a job here. And when I did get my job here, it was the best day of my life.

SPEAKER_04 50:25

Oh, I love that. That's awesome. And yeah, it sounds like the other places that you worked were great. I was gonna say trial by fire a little bit, but it sounds like you just had to do so much of everything. Yeah. That coming into a space where you have support in all of those places too, but you can also act in a moment if something needs to get done and also be dynamic in the fact that you can, okay, well, I know this animal really well. I can try something different, or I can use the tools I've used in my past and try something else.

SPEAKER_02 50:51

Yeah, working at a wholesaler really teaches you a lot and it it gets you in a good mindset, especially for a fast-paced environment. I mean, working in this field, anything can happen at any time, and you could have slow days, but you can also have really busy days. So being able to manage stress and anxiety or anything that comes with that, being able to be adaptable is huge. Totally.

SPEAKER_03 51:15

Yeah. What about you, Emily? I would say my background is almost similar to Jackie's, which why today's gonna be a good memory for me because we were together in most of that, and minus our schooling. So I went to school at Cal State Fullerton and I studied biology with a concentration in marine biology. And at the time I knew I wanted to be in this field, but I didn't know what, so then I just started volunteering here first with the education department. I was I did about six months until I could apply for an open husbandry volunteer position. And I did that for probably an additional six years, which was perfect. It was just hands-on experience while I was in school and doing side jobs elsewhere after school or when I graduated, I had an internship, and I can't remember when Jackie and I met, but it was somewhere along the lines between our internships and our volunteer time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:09

So it was when Emily got hired as an aquarist here, she was hired as an associate aquarist in Shark Lagoon, and I volunteered on Tuesdays, she worked on Tuesdays, so that's how kind of how we met.

SPEAKER_03 52:21

Yeah, and then I worked at Seedwell and Creatures as well, which I could say the same thing. We learned so many skills there in that fast-paced environment. And I when I got promoted the first time after being hired, they put me in the quarantine department, which is great because I had all those quarantine skills from working in a facility like that. I was really good at identifying fish that had any kind of ailment or that needed treatment or parasite, the everything Jackie was saying. So that was a really good experience, even though it was hard at times. You know, this field is changing and dynamic, and there's so much passion in it that if something goes wrong with an animal, it's emotional. We really care. And so yeah, and we've been here and we used to joke around in the past that one day we'll be at AOP working together, and we did, we made it.

SPEAKER_04 53:12

Yeah, we're here together. I love that. Well, you guys are both so talented. It's it's I mean, it just makes us better. So we're grateful that you work here and we're very lucky to have you. And our animals are even luckier.

SPEAKER_02 53:21

Yeah, what makes this job so unique is because you're dealing with these animals, and like you said, it's you almost smother them sometimes that when an animal is sick or you go through a loss, it really brings you so much closer to your co-workers because nobody understands that pain. Like if you try and tell somebody outside of the field, like, you know, I lost a shark today or something, it it's like it's a fish. Or like when we lost Michael, that was devastating to me. And Emily was the first person I called because she understood what that was like because she also loved Michael. And there was nobody else like that I could talk to about it that would that can understand.

SPEAKER_04 54:02

Yeah, yeah. But I think what people don't realize too is that the the the animals that you are working with, you are potentially spending more time with than your own families, your own pets at home. I mean, you're spending eight hours a day awake working with these animals one-on-one. So I'm always very impressed by the relationships that you guys build with the animals. And it makes absolute sense that, you know, when animals pass, which they all do unfortunately, and that's part of your job, it makes sense that it is such an emotional reaction and how you guys can transition and just go about like I know there's no going about your day, but being able to get the job done for the other animals that you care for too, and just kind of it there's no moving on, I'm sure, immediately, but it's always very impressive to me the way you guys are able to lock in and say, Okay, this is what needs to get done. But also, you know, by doing them doing the animals that you care for justice and taking such great care of them. It's a good job. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Do you want to talk about Michael a little bit?

SPEAKER_02 54:57

Yeah, so Michael was our spotted pared fish in our core predators exhibit. He was super duper special. Iconic.

SPEAKER_04 55:04

Everybody's iconic, yeah. To everyone at the aquarium. He's actually famous on this podcast, and the reason I initially learned that his name was Michael was because Keisha was talking to us about her favorite animal, and she was like, My favorite animal is Michael. And me and Aaron's out here like, Michael, who's Michael? Like, it's such a funny name for a fish. It is, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:22

I mean, when he came to the aquarium, he was an adult. So we had no idea how old he was or how much time we could possibly have with him. Like, was he recently an adult or has he been alive for a long time? Also, parrot fish lifespan, we don't know much about. I mean, we don't know much about parrot fish in general. So yeah, he was just this awesome parrot fish that we had in Coral Predators. And one of my favorite things about Michael was that he had a little potty. So there was a corner in the exhibit that he would use, and he would only use that corner. And if I came up to the exhibit and I saw him in that corner, I'm like, oh, he's using the potty. Let me turn around, no privacy, I'll come back. But it made cleaning the exhibit super easy because I'm like, oh, let me just go to this spot and I'll collect all that sand he produced for us.

SPEAKER_04 56:11

Yeah. Because his poop was sand, right? Where white sand beaches come from. Yes, yeah. I love that. But you know what? It was a little green too from the amount of veggies.

SPEAKER_02 56:20

Yes, he loved veggies. His favorite was cilantro, which we have a video of.

SPEAKER_04 56:24

I will include that in this in the show notes, so stay tuned for that. Yes. So he would eat a lot of veggies, so sometimes his poop is green. So if Michael, you know, had his own beach, it'd be a green sand beak. Green sand beak, you'd be beautiful. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 56:38

I would lie in that sand all day.

SPEAKER_04 56:41

Michael was a very special fish. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 56:42

Yes. I know.

SPEAKER_04 56:44

What are some animals that you would like to work with one day?

SPEAKER_02 56:46

That's a really good question. I mean, more parrot fish. Getting different species for me. I mean, that's my my bread and butter on White Sand Beach. Green sand. White sand, yeah. Parrot fish are that's, you know, those are my favorite animals. So getting able to work with them and beautiful. They're beautiful and they are of different personalities and yeah. Michael was trained too to come to some tongs. Yeah, he was. He was trained to tongs, which was pretty cute.

SPEAKER_04 57:16

What about you, Emily? What are some animals you would like to work with one day? I think crocodiles and alligators. And we had alligators once once upon a time, little baby ones. If we look at them again in the future. Yeah. Not the same alligators because those boys are all grown up. Oh, yeah. I'm assuming.

SPEAKER_03 57:30

Yeah, I think I was an intern when we had them, and they were named after the ninja turtles. They were so cute. But yeah, they were target trained individually as well. But I don't know where they are now, and I'm sure they're just big, meaty, wonderful animals.

SPEAKER_04 57:47

Yeah, that'd be super cool to get something like that again. I think they're so cool. I know. I wonder because that they were a part of an exhibit called Vanishing Animals, right? That was I think so. That was our changing exhibit that year before we built Pacific Visions. That was my first year at the aquarium when we first had them. I'm pretty sure those are releases really early for me. And they were so cool. And it was so it I think by the time I got here, they were kind of wrapping up that exhibit too. So they were only here for a couple months when I was here, but they were sweet. They were sweet.

SPEAKER_02 58:13

We're gonna put it out into the universe. I know we want like an Amazon themed exhibition. I love that. Yeah, I would love to a bunch of amphibians, freshwater fish. Yeah, it's get we can go further than the Pacific here. Even though it's in our does it empty into the Pacific Ocean? Yeah. Close enough. Yeah. Freshwater stingeries would be so cool. I mean, yeah. That would be very cool.

SPEAKER_04 58:34

To pick a river that empties into the Pacific Ocean. We'll make a whole theme. Cool. Well, thank you guys so much for coming on and chatting with us today. I really appreciate it. I learned so much about training fish, and I love just sharing how intelligent fish are. I think that's just I said this earlier, but I think it's something that's missed so often. I would love to tell the story more often. So next time you guys are starting out a new animal, you have to let me know and we'll follow the story along the way. Cool. Thank you guys so much for coming on. I appreciate it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 59:05

Aquarium of the Podcific is brought to you by Aquarium of the Pacific, a 501c3 nonprofit organization.

SPEAKER_04 59:12

Keep up with the Aquarium on social media at Aquarium Pacific on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_00 59:18

This podcast is produced by Aaron Lundy and Madeline Walden. Our music is by Andrew Reitzma, and our podcast art is by Brandy Kenney. Special thanks to Cecile Fisher, Anitsa Viez, our audiovisual and education departments, and our amazing podcast guests for taking time out of their day to talk about the important work that they do.